Training/Course Information

Training/Course Information

Postby yoshi » Mon Feb 09, 2015 12:56 pm

Below message announces new course - Info Dominance Basic Course. While there may be SOME value in this course, I am deeply disappointed we spend money on this type of training while we have so many other training requirements which go unfunded. Our D/IWCs, for example, have no training pipeline. Many of our CTRs continue to be waivered through F school training in preparation for deployment simply because of their PCS timing (we don't spend money to send to schools en route, and for good reason). I would wager the same is probably true for cyber training. This is the second course developed directly at OPNAVN2/6 which had no Fleet requirement (IDMCC being the other, which basically is an AQD generator). I like the idea of robust training, but I think IDBC has to be the lowest priority. Of all the possible training courses and options to fund, this one probably provides the least value for the community and its members. Not sure we are properly focused. Also, if we are going to build courses which have little to no ROI, why do we insist on using NETC/CID knowing it costs the most money long term? (I suspect just because this is our known process). It is cheaper, faster, and more responsive to pay for course development at a place like NIOC NORFOLK/SAN DIEGO/etc, and it would also have a more relevant perspective (injecting current military folks in to the mix, not exclusively developed by long retired contractors). The CID process costs significantly more, takes much longer (JDTA, KST), requires incredible "overhead" (course documents, ELOs/TLOs, etc), and any changes require 2 years (NETC process). When you look at the shallow technical knowledge imparted during something like IDBC, it is very wasteful to submit it to an exhaustive process like NETC/CID, thereby inflating costs and time lines. This is how training becomes unaffordable. These are the kinds of things our leaders must recognize, address, and improve. We cannot afford to perpetuate inefficiency.

-----OFFICIAL INFORMATION DISPATCH FOLLOWS-----
RAAUZYUW RHMFISS2067 0372002-UUUU--RHMCSUU.
ZNR UUUUU
R 062002Z FEB 15 ZYB
FM CENINFODOM CORRY STATION PENSACOLA FL
BT
UNCLAS
MSGID/GENADMIN/MIL-STD-6040(SERIES)/B.0.01.00
/CENINFODOM CORRY STATION PENSA/-/FEB/-/-/USA/UNCLASSIFIED/-//
SUBJ/PILOT ANNOUNCEMENT DATES FOR INFORMATION DOMINANCE BASIC
/COURSE (IDBC)//
REF/A/MSGID:DOC/NAVEDTRA/130/SEP2009//
AMPN/REF A IS NETC POLICY AND GUIDANCE FOR CONDUCTING A PILOT.//
POC/JAMES SPATES/LT/UNIT:CID HQ N72/NAME:PENSACOLA FL
/TEL:(850)452-6302/EMAIL:JAMES.SPATES(AT)NAVY.MIL//
POC/PATRICK VEGELER/CDR/UNIT:CID HQ N72/NAME:PENSACOLA FL
/TEL:(850)452-6412/EMAIL:PATRICK.VEGELER(AT)NAVY.MIL//
POC/CHARLES SAUTER/CIV/UNIT:CID HQ N7/NAME:PENSACOLA FL
/TEL:(850)452-4750/EMAIL:CHARLES.SAUTER(AT)NAVY.MIL//
GENTEXT/REMARKS/1. IAW REF A, CID UNIT HAMPTON ROADS (FORMERLY
NMITC) WILL HOST SUBJECT PILOT, 2-20 MAR 2015 AT DAM NECK, VA.
2. PILOT INFORMATION:
A. IDBC, CIN: J-3A-2301 - WAS DEVELOPED TO PROVIDE ACCESSION
INTELLIGENCE, INFORMATION WARFARE, INFORMATION PROFESSIONAL,
METEOROLOGY, OCEANOGRAPHY, AND SPACE CADRE OFFICERS CORE TRAINING
RELEVANT TO THE INFORMATION DOMINANCE CORPS. IDBC WILL PROVIDE THE
FOUNDATION FOR STUDENTS TO COMPLETE INFORMATION DOMINANCE
WARFARE OFFICER (IDWO) QUALIFICATION VIA THE IDC PERSONNEL
QUALIFICATION STANDARDS (PQS). HOWEVER, A STUDENT WILL NOT MEET FULL
IDWO QUALIFICATION BY ATTENDING THIS COURSE OF INSTRUCTION.
3. CID UNIT HR IS LOCATED ON THE NAS OCEANA, DAM NECK ANNEX AT 2088
REGULUS AVE, BLDG 420. QUARTERDECK NUMBER IS 757-492-0001/0002.
//
BT
  • 0

yoshi
Experienced Member
 
Posts: 390
Joined: Thu Jul 10, 2008 5:10 am
Reputation: 16

Re: Training/Course Information

Postby VQ Bubba » Mon Feb 09, 2015 5:05 pm

Any idea if this is in addition to IWBC...or in place of?

The bit where it states that this course will provide the foundation for IDWO qualification...er...unlikely in 15 total classroom days. Also, cannot tell when in a new accession's training process this course will be delivered...prior to first duty station? If so, then we are giving them "Just in not time training"...the newby will be focused on their own individual community's qualification process for a year or so, before (re)turning to the greater IDC construct by which time most of the information imparted during this course will be only somewhat remembered.

The lack of direct linkage to PQS and/or JQR completion bothers me the same as IWBC...we are paying for a course of instruction that does not result in any documented advance in qualification status.

Hopefully, this particular message is merely incomplete in explaining this new course...but it seems like there are a number of loose ends.
  • 0

User avatar
VQ Bubba
Experienced Member
 
Posts: 70
Joined: Fri Jul 11, 2008 5:52 pm
Location: Maryland
Reputation: 4

Re: Training/Course Information

Postby COMEVIL » Mon Feb 09, 2015 5:27 pm

VQ Bubba wrote:Any idea if this is in addition to IWBC...or in place of?

The bit where it states that this course will provide the foundation for IDWO qualification...er...unlikely in 15 total classroom days. Also, cannot tell when in a new accession's training process this course will be delivered...prior to first duty station? If so, then we are giving them "Just in not time training"...the newby will be focused on their own individual community's qualification process for a year or so, before (re)turning to the greater IDC construct by which time most of the information imparted during this course will be only somewhat remembered.

The lack of direct linkage to PQS and/or JQR completion bothers me the same as IWBC...we are paying for a course of instruction that does not result in any documented advance in qualification status.

Hopefully, this particular message is merely incomplete in explaining this new course...but it seems like there are a number of loose ends.


This is the new predecessor to the IDC Mid-Career course. Intent is an intro to the IDC for new IDC Officers.....very similar to what the "mid-career" course actually is now. That course should morph to being truly mid-career.

v/r

Comevil
  • 0

User avatar
COMEVIL
Experienced Member
 
Posts: 814
Joined: Mon Jun 15, 2009 11:54 am
Reputation: 34

Re: Training/Course Information

Postby yoshi » Mon Feb 09, 2015 5:32 pm

I do not know if this replaces IWBC, but I doubt it would, although it could arguably replace a portion (if this were viewed as a common core and suitable replacement). IWBC has actually increased in length, which makes replacement unlikely. Additionally, this pilot is in Hampton Roads, whereas IWBC is in Pensacola. I'm not against this type of education (which is different from training), I just have concerns with respect to 1) priorities for what training/education we are developing (given needed training/education) and 2) the avenues we choose to develop that training or education. Training dollars and training time are very hard to come by and the processes/decisions made have to be efficient.
  • 0

yoshi
Experienced Member
 
Posts: 390
Joined: Thu Jul 10, 2008 5:10 am
Reputation: 16

Re: Training/Course Information

Postby COMEVIL » Mon Feb 09, 2015 6:00 pm

yoshi wrote:I do not know if this replaces IWBC, but I doubt it would, although it could arguably replace a portion (if this were viewed as a common core and suitable replacement). IWBC has actually increased in length, which makes replacement unlikely. Additionally, this pilot is in Hampton Roads, whereas IWBC is in Pensacola. I'm not against this type of education (which is different from training), I just have concerns with respect to 1) priorities for what training/education we are developing (given needed training/education) and 2) the avenues we choose to develop that training or education. Training dollars and training time are very hard to come by and the processes/decisions made have to be efficient.


It may replace some parts of IWBC but this is not/not a replacement for individual designator training (1810, 1820, etc). This is simply an intro to the IDC.
  • 0

User avatar
COMEVIL
Experienced Member
 
Posts: 814
Joined: Mon Jun 15, 2009 11:54 am
Reputation: 34

Re: Training/Course Information

Postby VQ Bubba » Mon Feb 09, 2015 7:40 pm

COMEVIL wrote:
This is the new predecessor to the IDC Mid-Career course. Intent is an intro to the IDC for new IDC Officers.....very similar to what the "mid-career" course actually is now. That course should morph to being truly mid-career.

v/r

Comevil


Errr...then color me still a bit confused.

Since the requirement is to complete the IDWO qualification during your first tour and this IDBC course is advertised as "PROVIDE(ing) THE FOUNDATION FOR STUDENTS TO COMPLETE INFORMATION DOMINANCE WARFARE OFFICER (IDWO) QUALIFICATION VIA THE IDC PERSONNEL QUALIFICATION STANDARDS (PQS). HOWEVER, A STUDENT WILL NOT MEET FULL IDWO QUALIFICATION BY ATTENDING THIS COURSE OF INSTRUCTION" this means that either this course is conducted prior to first tour (ie paid for by BUPERS) or during first tour (paid for by NIOC XX TAD $$).

Unless we are adding serious TAD funding to each NIOC or establishing mobile training teams...this becomes either a time/resource burden to the NIOCs or the training will be delivered at the wrong time (prior to first tour)...and might as well be taught at Corry Station to save additional BUPERS-funded travel dollars.

I guess I'm still stuck on the sequencing in the overall training (and if it is aimed at PQS completion, it's training and not education) continuum.

Nothing against additional training/education. However, as always, it becomes a cost/benefit determination...what are we not buying in the course of buying the IDBC?
  • 0

User avatar
VQ Bubba
Experienced Member
 
Posts: 70
Joined: Fri Jul 11, 2008 5:52 pm
Location: Maryland
Reputation: 4

Re: Training/Course Information

Postby Pwlk » Mon Feb 09, 2015 7:50 pm

I am excited that this course is about to go live. Step in the right direction. Good location for it too. Hope there is time for field trips (I'll volunteer my ship).

Interested in knowing breakdown of desigs/rates for instructors and what end of course expectation/deliverables/outputs are.
  • 0

User avatar
Pwlk
Experienced Member
 
Posts: 60
Joined: Mon Mar 23, 2009 4:31 pm
Reputation: 2

Re: Training/Course Information

Postby COMEVIL » Mon Feb 09, 2015 8:07 pm

VQ Bubba wrote:
COMEVIL wrote:
This is the new predecessor to the IDC Mid-Career course. Intent is an intro to the IDC for new IDC Officers.....very similar to what the "mid-career" course actually is now. That course should morph to being truly mid-career.

v/r

Comevil


Errr...then color me still a bit confused.

Since the requirement is to complete the IDWO qualification during your first tour and this IDBC course is advertised as "PROVIDE(ing) THE FOUNDATION FOR STUDENTS TO COMPLETE INFORMATION DOMINANCE WARFARE OFFICER (IDWO) QUALIFICATION VIA THE IDC PERSONNEL QUALIFICATION STANDARDS (PQS). HOWEVER, A STUDENT WILL NOT MEET FULL IDWO QUALIFICATION BY ATTENDING THIS COURSE OF INSTRUCTION" this means that either this course is conducted prior to first tour (ie paid for by BUPERS) or during first tour (paid for by NIOC XX TAD $$).

Unless we are adding serious TAD funding to each NIOC or establishing mobile training teams...this becomes either a time/resource burden to the NIOCs or the training will be delivered at the wrong time (prior to first tour)...and might as well be taught at Corry Station to save additional BUPERS-funded travel dollars.

I guess I'm still stuck on the sequencing in the overall training (and if it is aimed at PQS completion, it's training and not education) continuum.

Nothing against additional training/education. However, as always, it becomes a cost/benefit determination...what are we not buying in the course of buying the IDBC?


As was explained to us at while at NMITC, this is part of your initial accession pipeline. Believe this is actually the first stop.
  • 0

User avatar
COMEVIL
Experienced Member
 
Posts: 814
Joined: Mon Jun 15, 2009 11:54 am
Reputation: 34

Re: Training/Course Information

Postby Pwlk » Tue Feb 10, 2015 12:14 am

COMEVIL wrote:
VQ Bubba wrote:
COMEVIL wrote:
This is the new predecessor to the IDC Mid-Career course. Intent is an intro to the IDC for new IDC Officers.....very similar to what the "mid-career" course actually is now. That course should morph to being truly mid-career.

v/r

Comevil


Errr...then color me still a bit confused.

Since the requirement is to complete the IDWO qualification during your first tour and this IDBC course is advertised as "PROVIDE(ing) THE FOUNDATION FOR STUDENTS TO COMPLETE INFORMATION DOMINANCE WARFARE OFFICER (IDWO) QUALIFICATION VIA THE IDC PERSONNEL QUALIFICATION STANDARDS (PQS). HOWEVER, A STUDENT WILL NOT MEET FULL IDWO QUALIFICATION BY ATTENDING THIS COURSE OF INSTRUCTION" this means that either this course is conducted prior to first tour (ie paid for by BUPERS) or during first tour (paid for by NIOC XX TAD $$).

Unless we are adding serious TAD funding to each NIOC or establishing mobile training teams...this becomes either a time/resource burden to the NIOCs or the training will be delivered at the wrong time (prior to first tour)...and might as well be taught at Corry Station to save additional BUPERS-funded travel dollars.

I guess I'm still stuck on the sequencing in the overall training (and if it is aimed at PQS completion, it's training and not education) continuum.

Nothing against additional training/education. However, as always, it becomes a cost/benefit determination...what are we not buying in the course of buying the IDBC?


As was explained to us at while at NMITC, this is part of your initial accession pipeline. Believe this is actually the first stop.


And from conversations at SIWC about a year ago, this will shorten IWBC, slightly.
  • 0

User avatar
Pwlk
Experienced Member
 
Posts: 60
Joined: Mon Mar 23, 2009 4:31 pm
Reputation: 2

Re: Training/Course Information

Postby 12345qwert » Tue Feb 10, 2015 5:55 am

I didn't even realize this was in the works and am ignorant to what's been done to develop it (or what (specifically) will be covered), but just a quick thought about timing.

Why not make this like SWOS? In the SWO community (at least when I was on a ship as an IWO a few years ago), to go to SWOS you had to qual OOD and complete your SWO PQS, then after SWOS you took your SWO board to earn your qual. You could easily apply the same tenants to our communities, where you have to qualify in your specific designator (18XX) and finish your IDWO PQS first, THEN go through the short course before returning back to your command to conduct your qualification board and ultimately earn your IDWO pin. To me at least, it makes a lot of sense to go through a program after you've done your PQS and had some real-world experiences that you can use (from your own community within the IDC) and share with your IDC classmates from other communities. Students are also motivated to pay attention and retain the knowledge with a qual board waiting for them when they return to their command AND meet all of the requirements in school (tests/exercises/etc).

I understand that the SWOs recently added a "front end" classroom training before JOs get on their first ship, but the intent with that was to replace SWOS-in-a-box. IWBC is our front-end classroom training, and perhaps this could be the more advanced training that gets integrated into the qualification process.

Yes, there are additional costs with a TAD after you've PCS'd to your new command, but it is well worth the payoff of having IDC JOs that retain more of the knowledge from their formal educational experiences - and have a better understanding of how and why we all work together.

I have a strong feeling that we're too far along in the process to make these types of changes - but if not, might be worth engaging the POCs. Anyone reached out to LT Spates or CDR Vegeler? If not, I am happy to send a note/call.
  • 0

12345qwert
Registered Member
 
Posts: 33
Joined: Fri Aug 02, 2013 11:34 pm
Reputation: 9

Next

Return to Information Dominance Corps

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: No registered users and 2 guests

cron