New CDRs

Re: New CDRs

Postby COMEVIL » Thu May 28, 2015 4:52 pm

COMEVIL wrote:
Sum1 wrote:
COMEVIL wrote:1810 Board Statistics:
Board Target Opportunity: 70 %
IWs in Zone: 41
IWs Selected: 28 (8 AZ/18 IZ/2 BZ)
IW IZ Opportunity: 44%

High level analysis:
11/28 had or are in LCDR XO or OIC positions (4 non-selects had XO/OIC positions)
22/28 had or are in LCDR Milestone (3 of remaining 6 had or are in XO/OIC positions)
26/28 have progression toward joint (e.g. JPME I, FJT, JQO)
25/28 completed Master's program (17/25 STEM)
3/28 have documented acquisition qualifications (2 non-selects have documented acquisition qualifications)
8/28 have documented cyber qualifications (0 non-selects have documented cyber qualifications)

Key discriminators were sustained superior performance in leadership and operational jobs and challenging assignments.
- In the absence of hard breakouts among peer 1810 or IDC officers, soft breakouts among the entire pay grade pack were important and help to understand overall competitiveness.
- Diversity in both job function and geolocation is a positive factor.


Thanks for posting this. I was just popping in to ask if we could expect anything like this for the board.

I find it curious we still see geolocation diversity as a bullet point. The board precept includes a section on Area Tours, which specifically states that multiple or consecutive tours in a given area should not be viewed negatively, provided billet complexity and progression is maintained.


I'm honestly not sure how much weight to put on that comment. I have seen it listed in past feedback, for both advancement and Command/Milestone screening boards. Looking through the convening order, I can find nothing that discusses geolocation diversity.


Page A-4, Para 5

http://www.public.navy.mil/bupers-npc/b ... RECEPT.pdf

Good call pulling the precept.

So, looking at that, I'd say it can't be view negatively, however... Reading the feedback, geographic diversity is a positive factor.

Confused? So am I.

I go back to my original statement. Nowhere - convening order or precept - does this message go to the board members. So where is it coming from?

Might be worth asking the detailer.
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Re: New CDRs

Postby COMEVIL » Thu May 28, 2015 5:08 pm

rturcic72 wrote:Looking at the stats, we still see sustained superior performance, a Milestone Tour, Joint Progression, and a Masters. So, no major change here, but at a minimum to be competitive for a shot at selection. Based on timing is where we begin to see discriminators like XO/OIC, so about half of the selectees have this or their milestone. Acquisition is a toss up and good; and cyber is a new track to focus on. I would not be surprised if the GC1 AQD for the IDC mid-Career course becomes a discriminator as part of professional development.

Of course a STEM Masters carries some more weight, especially if done off duty, but that depends on the reviewer and the precept. Geographical location should not be a predictor given the fiscal constraints and unpredictable economy we are still under, but I can see it happen. I would ask that if you are in a billet that moves up and right, possibly another milestone or full joint credit, maybe EFM issues occurred in the family, then a letter to the board could easily help to justify this so board members and reviewers understand you are not just doing this because you do not want to move.

The trend that I also see in the stats is that timing and short-touring was a factor for half of the selectees. I dislike using the word "drug deal," but you can see it. If you put on O-4 and lucky to get a milestone off the bat, and then roll into XO/OIC, and the planets align, then you are in there; with good paper naturally. If you go to a three year shore billet, get an EP, cut a deal to leave early to a milestone or leadership job, then you are in there.

Today, we cannot really short tour anymore. One of the reasons can be seen in this cycle, not allowing other Officers the opportunity to move on because someone had already been selected outside of the slating process leading to poor timing and commands unable to adequately man at the O4/O5 levels. It's hard to point fingers because I've seen Admirals override some of these billets with who they wanted putting the Detailer at a disadvantage, or a Detailer used some car salesmanship to make a deal and break a deal.

As an example, if you go to the NAVIDFOR TYCOM, you must do all three years unless you select and then you can move on and out. Then CSG CRC tours are three year tours...now you are IZ. So as a reviewer these are considerations that will need to be taken into account along with good paper, masters, joint, etc.

Another example, my first full cycle FITREP as a new O4 reporting to a staff command was a Flag EP slightly above RSA and above SUM GRP with a great soft and hard break, yet I was not allowed to move on to a milestone, only folks who were already selected at the command left, some to milestones, others more like where the IDC needed them. I wait a year, another Milestone comes up and bam, the milestone list changes, my slate goes away, and the community leader states no more short touring after getting another good full cycle Flag FITREP, new RS and a great average way above RSA. So finally I get screened, but the person I relieve was selected in this O5 cycle and neither one of us were allowed to relieve each other earlier in the last 1-2 years of trying.

This would not happen in the Aviation community. EP...you're moving on so the next group has a shot to slide over. We do not do this very well in our community. In my opinion, the stats and precepts may need to be adjusted to reflect flexible considerations because many folks may be stuck with two full tours and get looked at, then trying to adjust their tours to do XO/OIC and/or possibly cyber somewhere if FOS IZ. But I understand in the end it is performance because I know most of the group selected and some had some limited opportunities, yet made the best of it and performed very well, hence their selection.

There is even some RUMINT, and I take it only as hearsay, that at least one of the selectees went to NJP for using unnecessary excessive force and knocked out an Enlisted Sailor and the Investigator, or someone in the Chain that knew this particular Officer from the Academy, pulled the mark out of their record and brushed it under the rug much to the dismay of several IW Officers that were witness to the event. Unfortunately stuff like this happens, but if I was not present, I can only say what I've heard from several folks within the Wardroom.

Finally, if Congress and the other services buyoff on the Navy moving away from year groups, this could potentially change the promotion environment where HYT would be adjusted allowing for some folks to stay longer in their pay-grade until the board feels they are ready for the promotion and/or shorter because they have what it takes early on. I believe the Marines do something similar, but their Officers promote about a year or so later than we do. It will be interesting to see if this plays out because I'm not sure what this looks like for the IDC, but I believe there will need some considerable buyoff for this.


I'm honestly not sure what points you are trying to make here, other than to let us all know timing matters and you were impacted because of it????

I might sound like a broken record, but read the precept and the convening order. The board members do. And with a good President, they stick to it religiously.

Regarding timing, I have tons of examples where LCDR's were able to complete 4 tours prior to going in front of the board. And I can confidently say 3 is the norm. Even if you are going to a new tour just months prior/after the board convenes.

Milestone tours are 2 years, as are XO. Talk of CSG CRC tours extending to 3 is still talk.

My advice... Live by the IWOL. Look for opportunities and present solutions to the detailer. In other words, detail yourself.

Or, let the system take its course and suffer the consequences...
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Re: New CDRs

Postby rturcic72 » Thu May 28, 2015 6:30 pm

The key point as you stated is the timing piece, but it seems harder to come out of the shoot into a milestone or XO/OIC tour when putting on O4. I am one of a few required to complete the full three year tour length in a staff billet, and then the milestone tour afterwards. Using the current numbers today, and being right below the BZ cut line by one to two slots, makes it difficult to determine if a couple of us will get one or two BZ looks before coming IZ, or only one BZ and one IZ.

I will relieve a new selectee from the list, but we could have done this at least one year earlier so I could fit a third tour or start it easier as you mentioned in your response. You are right, I am one of a few folks impacted by this because the MS list changed in the middle of this tour adding the NCUs, removing PHIBRON MSs, etc., so the Detailer's hands were tied and we re-screened based on the new listing moving our PRDs over to the right.

Anyway, this is a great conversation and I appreciate the feedback and guidance. I take each response as a lesson in mentoring, especially from more experienced folks in our community that have been there. I know the boards are very fair, but a handful of us become anxious because it's been an interesting past 2-3 years between the O4/O5 boards and numbers increasing, decreasing, and trying to level out to try to promote to vacancy.
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Re: New CDRs

Postby COMEVIL » Thu May 28, 2015 6:44 pm

rturcic72 wrote:The key point as you stated is the timing piece, but it seems harder to come out of the shoot into a milestone or XO/OIC tour when putting on O4. I am one of a few required to complete the full three year tour length in a staff billet, and then the milestone tour afterwards. Using the current numbers today, and being right below the BZ cut line by one to two slots, makes it difficult to determine if a couple of us will get one or two BZ looks before coming IZ, or only one BZ and one IZ.

I will relieve a new selectee from the list, but we could have done this at least one year earlier so I could fit a third tour or start it easier as you mentioned in your response. You are right, I am one of a few folks impacted by this because the MS list changed in the middle of this tour adding the NCUs, removing PHIBRON MSs, etc., so the Detailer's hands were tied and we re-screened based on the new listing moving our PRDs over to the right.

Anyway, this is a great conversation and I appreciate the feedback and guidance. I take each response as a lesson in mentoring, especially from more experienced folks in our community that have been there. I know the boards are very fair, but a handful of us become anxious because it's been an interesting past 2-3 years between the O4/O5 boards and numbers increasing, decreasing, and trying to level out to try to promote to vacancy.


With a two year MS tour next you will probably still have time to at least start an XO/OIC tour.
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Re: New CDRs

Postby Mjölnir » Fri May 29, 2015 5:09 pm

COMEVIL wrote:Key discriminators were sustained superior performance in leadership and operational jobs and challenging assignments.
- In the absence of hard breakouts among peer 1810 or IDC officers, soft breakouts among the entire pay grade pack were important and help to understand overall competitiveness.
- Diversity in both job function and geolocation is a positive factor.


I wonder if that could be diversity in the geolocation of the mission ... trying to avoid someone doing a whole career focusing in PACOM or LANT (which I don't think is really a bad thing)?

If it truly is "we prefer folks moving around for the sake of moving around" ... which is not something that seems to be much of a factor for URL ... that is unfortunate. CO of the 1st and 3rd submarines I deployed on had spent the majority of their careers in Groton and Norfolk respectively. The 1st CO on the DDG I was assigned to had spent 25 of 27 years in Norfolk. Understanding that aside from the DC/Ft. Meade area we don't really have a concentration area like SWO's or Submarine Officers etc that we will have to move around through our careers, I can see where someone might want to live in the same place for more than 2-3 years at a time -- which can adversely impact the lives of people who are part of EFMP or who have spouses with careers.

My big goal right now is to keep my daughter with the same surgical team for her myriad of medical issues. Sure, I could geobachelor and come back, but with all the medical stuff going on with her the last thing that is good for her or my wife is me to take off for a year or two. So after having done the 18 month Fellowship in DC from summer 12 to Dec 13, and USCYBERCOM from Dec 13 - Dec 15 I am going to Suitland to stay in the same area and keep the kiddo with the same set of doctors; if that impacts me negatively ... so be it. I will be at completely different command, new job (MS job ... yay), all the billets have been different in scope, focus and levels of responsibility but it is weird to think that I will have lived in the same place for 5 1/2 years at the end of the next tour ... the longest I have homesteaded in 24 years --- 27 by the time we move.

Unfortunately, if geolocational diversity is a plus (while not being a negative) it may force people to chose a reasonable amount of stability for their family over a choice that is good for their career -- you might not get the best person for the job, just the best one who could accept the orders.
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New CDRs

Postby LIVINGIW » Mon Jan 11, 2016 5:32 pm

Stalwart, Seems like you are doing it the right way. The job diversity is key. Title (both job and Command) will help too. Fellowship (out of ordinary, but selective), USCYBERCOM (joint/cyber/staff), now NCWDG... Heck, you could probably follow on at OPNAV and then 05 milestone at C10F if you were really aiming for homesteading.

Work hard for the acquisition and/or additional cyber experience while at NCWDG and those are just more feathers in your cap...


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Re: New CDRs

Postby Mjölnir » Thu Jan 14, 2016 2:06 am

LIVINGIW wrote:Stalwart, Seems like you are doing it the right way.


First time I have heard that . :)
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Re: New CDRs

Postby LIVINGIW » Thu Jan 14, 2016 2:50 pm

Fair enough. I am a firm believer in what my first CO told me...

Paraphrasing here.... "Take the hard job, do your best, repeat."

Sure, geographic and job diversity are important, as is hitting needed milestones, but at the core... outstanding performance in a hard job is key...


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