FY-14 O-4 Selection Board

Re: FY-14 O-4 Selection Board

Postby JMG » Thu Jul 25, 2013 4:17 am

ya, this topic probably needs to be bumped to a new thread....

I understand there are a small percentage of senior officers that perhaps should move on to other employment. However, that decision should be made by 'big Navy'. The opinion of a few people that believe the reason they are not selected for promotion simply because the O-5s/O-6s are not retiring fast enough is concerning. Instead of blaming your misfortunes on others perhaps your time would be better spent concentrating on how you can improve your own situation. You can do everything right and still not succeed. It may not be fair but that is life. Pointing the proverbial finger at the 'deadwood' in the community does not help your situation and only breeds contempt. Right or wrong those O-5s and O-6s were selected for a reason and they should be allowed, with respect, to serve their country as long as they see fit.

Always do your job well and you may or may not be rewarded. If you do not like how the promotion process works then perhaps YOU should think about getting out of the Navy.

yoshi wrote:My paper record, FITREPs notwithstanding, is virtually the same as several of those who were selected and the same as several of those who didn't. At this point, I'd rather just focus on enjoying my job.


Well said !!!
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Re: FY-14 O-4 Selection Board

Postby arvizo » Thu Jul 25, 2013 5:13 am

JMG wrote:I understand there are a small percentage of senior officers that perhaps should move on to other employment. However, that decision should be made by 'big Navy'. The opinion of a few people that believe the reason they are not selected for promotion simply because the O-5s/O-6s are not retiring fast enough is concerning. Instead of blaming your misfortunes on others perhaps your time would be better spent concentrating on how you can improve your own situation. You can do everything right and still not succeed. It may not be fair but that is life. Pointing the proverbial finger at the 'deadwood' in the community does not help your situation and only breeds contempt. Right or wrong those O-5s and O-6s were selected for a reason and they should be allowed, with respect, to serve their country as long as they see fit.

Always do your job well and you may or may not be rewarded. If you do not like how the promotion process works then perhaps YOU should think about getting out of the Navy.

My statements about the existence of certain people in the military who are just hanging around for a paycheck are not related to my feeling of chances of promotion. It will be several years before I'm in-zone and I believe I am in control of my own destiny based on the jobs I choose and how much I do in those jobs. It's a small number of people who are just hanging around; I'm not saying it's an epidemic in the Navy. It's not a problem I'm really worried about. The Navy takes care of many of these situations with continuation boards.

JMG wrote:Right or wrong those O-5s and O-6s were selected for a reason and they should be allowed, with respect, to serve their country as long as they see fit.

Some people may change between the time they're promoted to a certain rank and four tours later when they're still the same rank. If a community is undermanned at a certain rank, they may allow people to hang around a long time because they need to fill the billets; not necessarily because they believe that person is such a great officer. Once an officer promotes to a given rank, he/she doesn't have to do anything special or have great FITREPs to fill a billet at that rank (except for certain jobs like CO/XO/milestone/etc.

Anyway, these are all just opinions. Comment as you see fit if you desire.
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Re: FY-14 O-4 Selection Board

Postby Sum1 » Thu Jul 25, 2013 6:43 am

yoshi wrote:Interesting conversation - not sure who is right on this one. I think the issue was captured appropriately with: "Some years we will leave outstanding people unpromoted and some years we will promote those with records that would not normally screen". That isn't exactly the recipe for sustained, superior community performance and probaly what ultimately leads our best and brightest to flee well before we want them to.

The last 5-6 years have seen a dramtic shift in what defines a solid, promotable record. Going to sea, getting a Master's was considered pretty much the ticket to O4 up until just a year or two ago. Better than half of the non-selects for O-4 this year went PCS afloat, and several of them also have a Master's. Seems to prove the notion that it doesn't matter where you are placed, you have to "grow where you are planted". Also, it seems to suggest the desired milestones prior to O4/O5 to be less milestone and more a description of what we typically do as ENS-LT. However, any analysis of the results is largely just anecdotal and do not factor in YG strength, each individual's performance, constraints within commands (which depend upon detailing, utilization, personality, etc), additional community requirements which are not and will not be reflected in a brief, and on, and on. After years of trying to understand what i need to do be of best use to the Navy and to myself, i have come around to the realization that I'd rather just detail to something interesting that fascinates me, do my best, and plan for either continued service beyond next year's results or a transition into something as a civilian which fascinates me. I've foolishly wasted way too much time and effort trying to figure out crap I have no hope of controlling. My paper record, FITREPs notwithstanding, is virtually the same as several of those who were selected and the same as several of those who didn't. At this point, I'd rather just focus on enjoying my job.


Do you have the stats to share? I'm curious to see your points played out in the numbers (more curiosity on my part and less any sort of disbelief in the facts). My peers and I were told specific things when we came up through the pipeline in 2007/2008/2009 and eventually moved on to (gasp) PCS afloat, etc. If the paradigm shift you describe is true then that's an interesting shift from what I thought was a pretty reliable path to success (or at least the chance for success).
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Re: FY-14 O-4 Selection Board

Postby COMEVIL » Thu Jul 25, 2013 11:33 am

arvizo wrote:
COMEVIL wrote:
LIVINGIW wrote:We all have a responsibility to step aside when our time is up, whether driven by choice or circumstance.


Really? We are talking service to the Nation, right? If someone has more to give I say let them stay and continue to serve, promotable or not.

The problem is the people who are simply collecting a paycheck. Being employed by the government does not mean that person is actually being productive. I have worked with many military and civilians and there are some out there who just show up to work, but do not produce anything. Have you never seen this? If every government employee was productive, we probably wouldn't have trillions in debt nor cities filing for bankruptcy nor the many other problems that exist in the government. :-)


I've seen it with LCDR's who FOS'd x 2 and hanging around for their retirement. But that is within the HYT guidance. Try convincing them to get out vice wait around a few years for a lifelong retirement.

As for O-5/O-6's, that is such a small percent of our community and I really haven't witnessed any examples of them simply collecting a paycheck. I am assuming you have someone in mind. Either way, this is such a small percentage of our overall community I doubt it has much impact. And like I said, if they want to continue to serve so be it. I am confident that them hanging around won't prevent me from advancing.
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Re: FY-14 O-4 Selection Board

Postby yoshi » Thu Jul 25, 2013 4:31 pm

@Sum1:
the only things I looked at were billet history and education. so, yeah, i could say those are stats, but that isn't exactly helpful. I can say with confidence that it seems helpful to go to a PCS afloat billet, and even more helpful if you earn qualifications when there. That said, there were more than two or three who didn't earn all the qualifications avaialble to them or skipped going PCS afloat altogether. As for the education, having an advanced degrgee certainly seemed to help. Most folks who had a PCS afloat billet and a Master's selected. But, a few did not. Its difficult to know why we FOS those folks but select others favor who have neither a PCS afloat billet, nor an advanced degree (FITREPs?). I also dont understand the lateral transfers coming into our community one or two years prior to zone with no more operational experience than the usual IDC LT, less contribution to the communtiy by virtue of being a lat transfer, and far less technical knowledge. Yet, they select, sometimes with no advanced degree. This is a clue to the predominance of the FITREP and its universal power at the board. The FITREP is the most important aspect of a record, and it may be that the other stuff really only counts when records of prospective selectees are tied. The FITREP is the only common language spoken across all designators.

In the end, the "stats" don't really tell you anything other than its probably a good idea to go to sea and get a degree. But, I wouldn't consider those two to be milestones which diffrientiate a selectee from a non-selectee, in spite of the fact they are listed as such on the brief. We might want that experience in our community, but we don't guarantee it's presence. The fact they are listed as milestones on the brief seems to be adequate encouragement for the JOs to knock it out, and thus, we get the experience we want.
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Re: FY-14 O-4 Selection Board

Postby O-4's hate me » Thu Jul 25, 2013 5:24 pm

JMG wrote:The opinion of a few people that believe the reason they are not selected for promotion simply because the O-5s/O-6s are not retiring fast enough is concerning.


I can only speak for one person who was not selected, and these were not my comments. I think you are attributing them to the wrong group of people.
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Re: FY-14 O-4 Selection Board

Postby arvizo » Thu Jul 25, 2013 5:34 pm

Unfortunately, the board is the only group of people who really know why anyone was selected. We shouldn't promote a person simply because he/she checked all the boxes. Someone can do PCS afloat, but not do a very good job. Or someone could go to a less traditional billet (e.g., cyber) and really make an impact. Or someone could go to NPS, but leave without completing the degree requirements.
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Re: FY-14 O-4 Selection Board

Postby Mjölnir » Thu Jul 25, 2013 9:48 pm

yoshi wrote:The FITREP is the most important aspect of a record, and it may be that the other stuff really only counts when records of prospective selectees are tied. The FITREP is the only common language spoken across all designators.


I was an assistant recorder at an O5 board, and your above statement was 100% true at the board I attended. I would offer that now when I hear "sustained superior performance" I translate that to "where do you fall out in the summary group average and in the Reporting Senior's cumulative average?” If you don't know the answer to that question I would recommend you find out (something you can check on your Performance Summary Record.)

What I took away from my board experience:
-If through the course of a tour you move up in promotion recommendations (P, then MP, then EP for example) you are showing progression and growth.
-If you are consistently at or BELOW the cumulative you are likely to encounter problems.
-A laundry list of quals, pins, medals and degrees is not as compelling as the words & markings from your reporting senior.
-Check your record, check it twice … the assistant recorder the community sends to the boards can only do so much to correct missing data (they are not allowed to contact you … even if they know you and know something is missing.) If it can’t be found in your record it might as well not exist.
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Re: FY-14 O-4 Selection Board

Postby LIVINGIW » Thu Jul 25, 2013 10:26 pm

Stalwarts comments reflect what I saw on an 07 board I served as a recorder for. Fitreps!

That said, if I was gunning for O4... I would try to have a Masters degree completed, national tour touching cyber if possible and PCS afloat tour all under my belt as I went in zone. You CAN control what jobs you take and your performance in those jobs... You have a little less control over how the chips fall in your ranking and trait average, but take the hard job, do great things, repeat. If your leadership is worth anything, they will recognize your hardwork and contribution.

BREAK

Traditionally, NSW experience has worked in folks advantage at the board... Did that ring true this time?
Another thing to keep in mind....
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Re: FY-14 O-4 Selection Board

Postby Mjölnir » Thu Jul 25, 2013 10:56 pm

True fact LivingIW. I am not deriding graduate education, quals etc. but in '10, those seemed to be secondary to the PSR.

Even with my experience as a recorder I made sure my Master's degree, IDWO, NAO, SWO & TAO quals were in my record. I had not done a national/cyber tour but it still worked out in the end.
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