Top NSA officials leaving spy agency

Re: Top NSA officials leaving spy agency

Postby COMEVIL » Thu Nov 28, 2013 5:41 pm

das wrote:U.S. nears decision to split leadership of NSA, Cyber Command: sources
http://www.reuters.com/article/2013/11/ ... BG20131127

"As part of the emerging plan, the NSA likely would get a civilian director for the first time in its 61-year history, the individuals said."

[...]

"Since its inception in 1952, NSA has been led by a general or admiral, with a civilian deputy director.

Under the emerging plan, the director would be a civilian and the head of Cyber Command, which is a U.S. military command, would be a military officer.

Reuters reported last month that Vice Admiral Michael Rogers, commander of the U.S. Navy's 10th Fleet and the Navy's top cyberwarfare officer, was a leading candidate to be the next NSA director.

Rogers is now more likely to take over U.S. Cyber Command, individuals familiar with the matter said."


If this happens the Navy should follow their lead, splitting C10F and FCC into two separate commands. Let FCC act as the Navy component of USCC and execute the mostly national Cyber mission accordingly. New Cyber mission units can report to FCC. C10F would continue to maintain oversight of NIOC/FIOC operations. And give M, T, & E to NCF, or IDFOR, as is done with the rest of the Navy.

v/r

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Re: Top NSA officials leaving spy agency

Postby LIVINGIW » Sat Nov 30, 2013 3:49 am

Could not agree more! Makes too much sense to not do it... Probably why they wont
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Re: Top NSA officials leaving spy agency

Postby yoshi » Sun Dec 01, 2013 7:35 pm

You're on the money. Seems tremendously beneficial for both the cyber operations and the more traditional FIOC IW operations. It could be argued this should be done whether USCC/DIRNSA splits or not. Presently, nothing is able to realistically coexist with computer network operations priorities, billets, and monies under the same umbrella. It seems even less likely going forward. It will take several more years of maturing CNO until Navy figure out how it serves the Navy and should fit it in the fleet. We, as a military and government, are good at building mission, especially operational ones. That's sophomore level stuff. The hard part is to accurately place it, source/resource it, and enable it to independently exist adapt, all while maintaining the spirit, priority, and interests of all affected. It has to keep making sense - the mission, priorities, processes, organization, everything. Otherwise, you have either a great mission in a vacuum or a senseless relic . Figuring the way forward is likely easier if the other "cyber" components (traditional stuff) are not obscured by or combined with CNO. And, it gives more flexibility in the face of future cyber (CNO) developments (a cyber service or other things beyond Navy control).
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Re: Top NSA officials leaving spy agency

Postby das » Sun Dec 01, 2013 7:46 pm

Key officials advocate NSA, Cyber Command leadership be split up
http://www.washingtonpost.com/world/nat ... story.html

"Key senior administration officials have advocated splitting the leadership of the nation’s largest spy agency from that of the military’s cyberwarfare command as a final White House decision nears, according to individuals briefed on the discussions.

At a White House meeting of senior national security officials last week, Director of National Intelligence James R. Clapper Jr. said he was in favor of ending the current policy of having one official in charge of both the National Security Agency and U.S. Cyber Command, said the individuals, who spoke on the condition of anonymity.

Also, officials appear inclined to install a civilian as director of the NSA for the first time in the agency’s 61-year history. Among those said to be potential successors to the current director, Gen. Keith B. Alexander, is his deputy, John C. “Chris” Inglis."

---

The other interesting thing to watch if this split occurs will be whether USCC gets elevated to its own Unified Combatant Command, no longer subordinate to STRATCOM. If Alexander's retirement (and all the fallout from the Snowden debacle) makes this a "natural point" to consider the NSA/USCC leadership split, it's also just as natural to consider elevating USCC.

If the whole "civilian DIRNSA" thing also comes to pass, I wonder if that means the deputy position will now become a General/Flag Officer, and whether that position will revert to being a 2- or 3-star billet as opposed to the 4-star position that DIRNSA had become when USCC came into the mix. In either circumstance, it seems clear that Commander, USCC should be a 4-star billet.
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Re: Top NSA officials leaving spy agency

Postby COMEVIL » Sun Dec 01, 2013 10:29 pm

das wrote: The other interesting thing to watch if this split occurs will be whether USCC gets elevated to its own Unified Combatant Command, no longer subordinate to STRATCOM. If Alexander's retirement (and all the fallout from the Snowden debacle) makes this a "natural point" to consider the NSA/USCC leadership split, it's also just as natural to consider elevating USCC.

If the whole "civilian DIRNSA" thing also comes to pass, I wonder if that means the deputy position will now become a General/Flag Officer, and whether that position will revert to being a 2- or 3-star billet as opposed to the 4-star position that DIRNSA had become when USCC came into the mix. In either circumstance, it seems clear that Commander, USCC should be a 4-star billet.


To both thoughts highlighted in bold I ask you why? Some sweeping statements here, but not a long of supporting arguments.
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Re: Top NSA officials leaving spy agency

Postby das » Sun Dec 01, 2013 10:41 pm

COMEVIL wrote:To both thoughts highlighted in bold I ask you why? Some sweeping statements here, but not a long of supporting arguments.


As to the USCC elevation, I didn't say it should (or shouldn't) be, just that it is a natural point to consider it. Ashton Carter and Chuck Hagel have in the past indicated that this is a possibility; why should USCC continue to be subordinate to STRATCOM, especially with the increasing (and existing) importance of "cyber", and with the potential separation from NSA? The Unified Command Plan says that Combatant Commands should be capped at ten, and there are currently nine, so this would work...

As to being a 4-star billet, if USCC is elevated to a UCC, this would be a given. A 4th star was added to DIRNSA with the standup of USCC, and I realize there are other issues and reasoning here with DIRNSA being triple-hatted, but if USCC leadership and organization splits off from NSA — irrespective of whether it remains subordinate to STRATCOM, having USCC leadership be anything but a 4-star reduces its "clout" in the Unified Command structure. That was the reasoning for adding a 4th star at standup.
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Re: Top NSA officials leaving spy agency

Postby COMEVIL » Sun Dec 01, 2013 10:56 pm

das wrote:Ashton Carter and Chuck Hagel have in the past indicated that this is a possibility; why should USCC continue to be subordinate to STRATCOM, especially with the increasing (and existing) importance of "cyber", and with the potential separation from NSA? The Unified Command Plan says that Combatant Commands should be capped at ten, and there are currently nine, so this would work...


You still aren't telling me why, in your own words. So SECDEF and Carter have said it is a possibility, and there is room for growth (from 9 to 10) within the law. So what?

Why do we need to elevate US Cyber Command to such a level?

Is it really equivalent in depth and importance as CENTCOM, PACOM, or SOCOM?

How would elevating USCC benefit its mission or impact across the global?

Is it really necessary?

All of the cyber hype notwithstanding, I have a hard time thinking USCC need to be elevating to to the same level as CENTCOM or SOCOM. And your arguments thus far aren't convincing.
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Re: Top NSA officials leaving spy agency

Postby das » Sun Dec 01, 2013 11:37 pm

I believe it is necessary, and it is because of the "cyber hype" (some of which is absolutely hype, but much of which is very real). We could get into Unified Command theory, and the purpose and function of UCCs, and make arguments either way, but ultimately the reason why it's necessary is because there will come a time — if we're not already there — where a major attack with the same level of military effects as a kinetic attack will be able to occur exclusively via the information/"cyber" realm. I know a lot of people like to dismiss this possibility, but we need look no further than extensive Chinese doctrinal development — and even known actions over the last 5-10 years, be it taking control of US networks and satellites, development of ASAT capabilities, and so on, to say nothing of their own massive "CNA-OPE"-type activities — to understand that China expects to be able to use such capabilities against the US in any future conflict. And not as a "supporting capability", but as a primary capability: the whole "winning a war without firing a single shot" idea (which, of course, for China will also have a significant "psychological operations" aspect against the US populace as well in addition to any "cyber" component). Conversely, the US can and should employ these capabilities as a primary capability as well. In short, I believe it is possible for "cyber" to not only increasingly supplement but completely supplant kinetic action in future conflict. Some might say I'm wrong or overstating the case, but assuming it's not wrong, if that doesn't call for USCC to be its own UCC with a 4-star at the helm, I don't know what would. If we wait for this theory to be "proven correct" by such an attack that we can already convincingly argue is theoretically possible now or in the future, it will be too late for any course correction.
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Re: Top NSA officials leaving spy agency

Postby Schlag » Mon Dec 02, 2013 11:36 am

das wrote:The other interesting thing to watch if this split occurs will be whether USCC gets elevated to its own Unified Combatant Command, no longer subordinate to STRATCOM. If Alexander's retirement (and all the fallout from the Snowden debacle) makes this a "natural point" to consider the NSA/USCC leadership split, it's also just as natural to consider elevating USCC.


DIRNSA is becoming a civilian as a means of reigning in control. Why would they add to the madness by elevating CYBERCOM to full CoCom status? I think there is going to be a believe for right or wrong that CYBERCOM needs "supervision" from a traditional "trigger-puller" (i.e., head of STRATCOM). That said, I think it's safe to say USCC will be a sub-unified until after the next COMCYBERCOM's tenure.

das wrote:If the whole "civilian DIRNSA" thing also comes to pass, I wonder if that means the deputy position will now become a General/Flag Officer, and whether that position will revert to being a 2- or 3-star billet as opposed to the 4-star position that DIRNSA had become when USCC came into the mix. In either circumstance, it seems clear that Commander, USCC should be a 4-star billet.


DIRNSA was never anything than a 3-star position. Gen Alexander earned his fourth star by virtue of his CYBERCOM which was "stolen" from the disestablishment of JFCOM. I think that the Deputy Dog will become a 2-star if anything because of the growing push to reduce/downgrade flag/general officers.
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Re: Top NSA officials leaving spy agency

Postby Schlag » Mon Dec 02, 2013 11:44 am

COMEVIL wrote:If this happens the Navy should follow their lead, splitting C10F and FCC into two separate commands. Let FCC act as the Navy component of USCC and execute the mostly national Cyber mission accordingly. New Cyber mission units can report to FCC. C10F would continue to maintain oversight of NIOC/FIOC operations. And give M, T, & E to NCF, or IDFOR, as is done with the rest of the Navy.


While I agree with you that there needs to be a separation of cyber from cryptology, I don't think it would happen in that manner. I can't think of a combatant command that doesn't have operational units. FCC serves as the Navy component command to USCC, but it in turn needs operational forces to direct otherwise it's just a paper tiger. This comes through C10F who serves as the operational force provider.

While we look at NCF and ask ourselves, "how can you be our TYCOM and not be in our AdCon?" we also have to consider that they have MT&E over C5I at sea and ashore. That said, the at sea piece is the biggest driver and that's why they will NEVER report to anyone other than FLTFORCES. An URL officer (Commander of FLTFORCES) is always going to want to have first-choking rights over someone that can directly affect his/her readiness. That said, C5I is a HUGE pole in the tent and the need to have C5I at sea will trump anything ashore. That said, I really don't think we want to have the NIOC/FIOC operations being scrutinized by FLTFORCES because it's a different beast. I think we just need to abandon the concept of a TYCOM for ashore units (NIOC/FIOC) and solidify it under the OpCon channels.

My two pennies? Bring back SECGRU! :D. I wasn't in the community when it was around, but I always here everyone reminiscing on it like the good ole days!
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