Let me go through your points to make my argument. So full disclosure, I've been at a Big 4 for over 2.5yrs now. First 2yrs were on the "National" side (only 1yrs was really national, the other year was doing various staff positions for the Navy Task Force) and now I've been DIRSUP Air for almost 9 months and I'm doing my OIC det right now. I'm not quite sure what your experience is as an IWO or at a Big 4, but I for one am very disillusioned after having spent so much time here and cannot wait to get away from it.
COMEVIL wrote:-- Every warfare area is "no fail." Surface Warfare is no different than Air, Subsurface, SEAL, etc.
True, but IWO community has a problem with accountability. Trying to hold someone accountable at a Big 4 is like trying to get a bill through Congress after a 3 drink minimum. At worst, someone is given a wrist slap.
COMEVIL wrote:-- SWOs have a reputation of being a nasty community to come up in, period. SWOs take in ~4 Ensigns to make ~1 career SWO for this very reason.
Life at sea is tough. There's no getting around it because the sea has no tolerance for stupidity. SWO understand that and ingrain that at an early age. That said, the community has been working hard to change the culture of abusive leadership and my time on the ship (2009-2011) was very different than what I heard it would be pre-commissioning.
WRT 4 ENS for 1 careerist, what do you consider a careerist? Someone who does 20 yrs or someone who gets command? If you're talking 20 yrs, then the IWO community is in an unusual community in that there is a disproportionate number of prior enlisted officers in the community (typically at least 5-10 yrs) which changes the name of the game when it comes to doing 20 yrs. I think our retention through O-4 board of being 90%+ is a function of that and less because of "quality of life".
COMEVIL wrote:-- Much of a baby's SWOs first tour is spent qualifying -- OOD in port, Aft Steering, CICWO, Helm Safety, Boat O, OOD at sea, SWO. I would argue that, for most, their head is in their PQS while there division is run by their Chief. First two years complete --- and how much of that is beneficial to becoming an IWO?
Really depends on what division you're running. If you're in Engineering; forget it, you're running the division because your Chief is probably illiterate so you get to own all of the admin (personal experience with the 3 divisions I ran in Engineering). If you're in Combat Systems or Ops, then you'll have your Chief do more of the admin for you. However, IMHO Surface Chiefs are SIGNIFICANTLY BETTER at training JO than CT Chiefs are. I'm really quite disappointed with the technical expertise of CT Chiefs and found that straight out of IWBC I was better equipped than a lot of my Chiefs were on the watchfloor. I've also found that since coming to the Air Shop that several of the Chiefs I've worked with are not where I would hope they would be WRT cryptology. Their NATOPS knowledge is spot on; but then again, an AWV2 knows as much as NATOPS as they do. I need someone that can be a CT expert and I haven't seen it yet.
COMEVIL wrote:-- The second tour is very different, where they are qualified and have much more responsibility. Years three and four complete, it is time to lat/xfer.
Agreed, but the application of Navy doctrine & tactics and leadership development are CRUCIAL skills that are highly valued by the IWO community.
If we do not understand how the Navy works, then the IW, much less the IDC communities are of no valued added to the Navy.COMEVIL wrote:-- SWOs need programs like this (SWO-IWO) to make their numbers, period. They benefit. Whereas us.....that is debatable. I'd rather have an IWO get experience in the surface Navy by doing IW work, vice being a trainee for 2 years followed by a tour as Electro, Weps, or MPA.
So our communities core capabilities are SIGINT, EW, and Cyber. At a Big 4 site, you might be lucky to get a Cyber billet as a JO in which case you will get full-frontal cyber. That's awesome, but those billets are hard to come by; particularly as a new JO. You have a 50/50 chance of getting into a decent SIGINT job, but there's no guarantee that you're going to be trained how to do SIGINT. If you have a questioning mindset and push the envelop then you'll get there. But the vast majority of JO who are pushing qual don't have that skillset developed, much less are in a position to instill it. WRT EW, I'm hardpressed to think our community still cares about EW, but that's a different story.
I'm rambling, but let me get to my point. The Big 4 are not nearly as good at developing our core capabilities as we think they are. And they're certainly not good at teaching JO about the Navy or about leadership. In fact, straight-stick IWO JO are at an increased risk of being dropped on their head from an officer development perspective when they're at a Big 4 than I think they are on a ship because you always have the threat of the Agency's "Purple Kool-aid". We've had several JO go native and it's cause significant problems.
COMEVIL wrote:So, do we really want to encourage (key word, we have no way around this) outsourcing of our initial officer training to a community such as this?
IMHO, hell yes we do. Until the Big 4 do some soul-searching and figure out how to train JO and stop fussing over NDB, Chief's Season and all the other crap that detracts from the mission then yes, I think we need to continue the SWO-IW experiment. I'd even like to see the billets increase in that program because I think it has a higher likelihood of producing a better Officer who is equipped for the IW community.
Full disclosure, I plan on making this career and hopefully command. I also don't plan on being a bitter IWO; I actively work to improve things where I am and to pass on the knowledge and experience that I've had as both a SWO and an IWO to anyone who is willing to listen. That said, it is discouraging that I feel I am in the minority. I also feel is discouraging that I feel like with my limited time in the IW community that I can go toe-to-toe with someone in my same YG that has spent their entire time in the IW community.
I'm all ears to any comments/questions/concerns/flamespraying anyone has. I want to add value to the community and the Navy.