Is our promotion and command selection process TRULY fair?

Re: Is our promotion and command selection process TRULY fai

Postby COMEVIL » Fri Aug 01, 2014 1:50 pm

12345qwert wrote:Note 3: Note that it says “O-4 Shore leadership” and not XO. There was an earlier discussion on whether O-4 XO was required for O-5 command – if someone found the IDC Command Screen Board Precept (I have looked extensively and cannot), I am certain it will validate that O-4 XO is not “required” for O-5 CO selection.


I have asked for a copy of this precept but it is not yet available.

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Re: Is our promotion and command selection process TRULY fai

Postby Arkad » Sat Aug 02, 2014 10:03 pm

I have seen it as well at can confirm that O-4 XO is not required. Helped to draft one of late that attempts to make it desired (not aware of what happened in the staffing process), but no one wants it to be required...math alone won't support.
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Re: Is our promotion and command selection process TRULY fai

Postby COMEVIL » Sat Aug 02, 2014 10:23 pm

Arkad wrote:I have seen it as well at can confirm that O-4 XO is not required. Helped to draft one of late that attempts to make it desired (not aware of what happened in the staffing process), but no one wants it to be required...math alone won't support.


Regardless of required or desired, if you intend to be competitive for O-5 Command I think pursuing an O-4 XO tour is a sensible plan.

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Re: Is our promotion and command selection process TRULY fai

Postby Sum1 » Sun Aug 03, 2014 11:46 am

If we do that (O-4 XO as a prereq for O-5 command, albeit not a "requirement"), and we all know that we barely have enough milestone billets go get O-4s into one, much less two, then are we setting ourselves up for further skill-based stovepiping? For example, I've always been told it's desirable to have DIWCs who have experience as a CRC. But if XO as an O-4 is what sets you up for command as an O-5, then we are anecdotally creating a bit of a divergence at the O-4 level. Go to a CRC gig as your milestone and good luck with getting selected to O-5 command, but wait for an O-4 XO job and reduce the likelihood of DIWC experience.

I think the reality is, though, that timing will continue to play a large role in determining who ends up where. Fit and the skills of the officer will always be a factor, but it seems like timing continues to be extremely important, as well.
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Re: Is our promotion and command selection process TRULY fai

Postby COMEVIL » Sun Aug 03, 2014 7:56 pm

Sum1 wrote:If we do that (O-4 XO as a prereq for O-5 command, albeit not a "requirement"), and we all know that we barely have enough milestone billets go get O-4s into one, much less two, then are we setting ourselves up for further skill-based stovepiping? For example, I've always been told it's desirable to have DIWCs who have experience as a CRC. But if XO as an O-4 is what sets you up for command as an O-5, then we are anecdotally creating a bit of a divergence at the O-4 level. Go to a CRC gig as your milestone and good luck with getting selected to O-5 command, but wait for an O-4 XO job and reduce the likelihood of DIWC experience.

I think the reality is, though, that timing will continue to play a large role in determining who ends up where. Fit and the skills of the officer will always be a factor, but it seems like timing continues to be extremely important, as well.


Timing is always important...and sometimes luck plays a role.

Regarding DIWC, you are completely wrong. In my experience, most DIWC's never completed a CRC tour. The work is entirely different, although the duty is similar (staff afloat).

For future CO's, being a prior XO at some time in your career simply makes sense. In fact, most communities use that as a stepping stone to CO, whether in a fleet-up tour or other path. If we intend to set our CO's up for success, picking prior XO's (who had a successful tour) is a good plan.

Regarding timing, you are a LCDR for much longer than you think. There is plenty of time to get both milestone and XO tours knocked out during your time as a LCDR. Case in point: I will have completed the Naval War College (1 yr), a CSG CRC tour (milestone), an NSW tour (milestone) and should be a year into an XO tour (awaiting slate results) prior to being in-zone for CDR.

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Re: Is our promotion and command selection process TRULY fai

Postby yoshi » Mon Aug 04, 2014 3:29 am

While COMEVIL is in essence correct, it's important to keep a couple of things in mind. First, folks who pin on O4 closer to 11 years commissioned (quite a few folks on the most recent list) may not have 6 years as an O4 before they come into zone for O-5 because of US law regarding flow points (upper limit is an average of 17 years to O5, I think). As I understand the process, they are more likely to have 5 years as an O4. Second (and continuing with those having 5 years as an O4), if you take orders as an O3 in zone or as a LCDR select to something other than a milestone billet (the majority of officers), you will be behind the power curve in relation to the example COMEVIL laid out (by a couple years, most likely). The next job would seemingly have to be a milestone, followed by an XO job. Noticeably absent here is the joint job. If you take a joint job you may be encumbered up to 3 years. It is difficult to do a joint tour at the O4 level and remain competitive for O4 XO, and by extension, competitive for O5 command. It is kind of an either/or proposition.

Mitigating strategies:
Take a one year or less tour anywhere. This could be college, NAVCENT, etc. This would accelerate entrance into your next job, hopefully a milestone. Admittedly, I'm not sure how many of these there are. One could also apply for a fellowship program which lasts just a short period of time. Third, ask the detailer if there are joint AND milestone jobs. I'm not sure of the answer, but given CYBERCOM, it makes sense. Also, plan on doing a joint job as an O5, vice O4. They are sometime harder to fit in as you progress higher, but if you screen for O5 command, you shouldn't have any problem getting things to bend in your favor. Finally, and most important, be very clear with the detailer about what your goals are and be respectfully insistent. This can be tricky, but the detailing process isn't designed for you specifically. As such, if you don't take charge of your career timing and aren't working hard with the detailer to get what is needed to meet your individual goals, it is easy to become a victim of the large weaknesses in the system such as timing, opportunities, personalities, and everything else which goes into the detailing process. Ultimately, detailers have to fill open billets, and the detailing process we have, however weak, strong, or faulty, is the only tool at their disposable. Not getting what you want/need is not necessarily their fault. Likewise, no one should fault you for advocating for your own career needs. Plan your career, then do some branch planning so you won't feel left behind when the next trend hits (anyone remember IO?). You don't need a perfect plan, just an executable one. If you have an executable plan, you'll always be ahead of the slower bureaucracy.
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Re: Is our promotion and command selection process TRULY fai

Postby COMEVIL » Wed Aug 13, 2014 2:24 am

Some ground truth from BUPERS, courtesy of an engagement this week...

LCDR Milestones

+ There are no plans to create a formal LCDR Milestone board. Establishment of such a board would cost too much money and take up too much time. Consider the current O-5 and above Milestone/CMD Screen process (~2 weeks) and imagine how much more time would be required to add all IDC LCDRs to the process (...solution would be IDC-centric).

+ Not all IDC communities view LCDR Milestones in the same way. Intel has 100% opportunity for LCDR Milestone. IP and METOC don't have enough Officers to fill every Milestone billet so many folks will get two shots. Both view the tour itself as the screening, vice the chance to get into the billet in the first place. IW LCDR Milestone tours will grow, but will never reach 100% as the billet base will simply not allow it.

+ LCDR Afloat Milestone typically means future CDR Ashore Milestone, and vice versa. However, it is possible/permissable to go from LCDR Afloat Milestone to CDR Afloat Milestone if the Officer desires, or is not qualified for other tours.

LCDR XO

+ A LCDR XO tour is not required for CDR Command screen, however.... Completion of a LCDR XO tour will make you much more competitive for CDR CMD screen. BL: if you want Command, get an XO tour.

+ LCDR XO tours are not shifting to 18 months....regulations/directives do not support. However, if there are opportunities to move/fill early those will be explored.
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Re: Is our promotion and command selection process TRULY fai

Postby Sum1 » Wed Aug 13, 2014 9:38 pm

Sounds like you must have had the same meeting with the same person as I had :)

It was great to get an opportunity to sit down and have frank conversations with the people who work in Millington. It was particularly valuable as a LT with a few more fitreps to go before he comes in zone to get an idea of where I stood and where I needed to direct more energy. I also like that I was the only IWO at my entire command, so we probably got more sit down time than I deserved haha.
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Re: Is our promotion and command selection process TRULY fai

Postby COMEVIL » Fri Sep 12, 2014 11:31 am

The convening order is now posted on the BUPERS website. Go to the IDC page under Officer detailing to review.

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Re: Is our promotion and command selection process TRULY fai

Postby COMEVIL » Mon Sep 15, 2014 9:05 pm

Results are posted here -- https://mpte.portal.navy.mil/sites/NPC/ ... 2SEP14.pdf

CAC required.

Congrats to all those selected! Keep truckin' to those not.

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